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  • 1.  Computer Science as a third year math or science requirement?

    Posted 09-03-2024 07:41 AM

    A teacher in a very small rural school district asked the following question:  "I am wondering if you know the rules regarding high school computer science and if it can be counted as a math or science credit or is that just for AP Computer Science or neither? If you know how this works or links to documentation I would appreciate it."My preliminary response was as follows:  (further clarifications desired)


    This is a little fuzzy.   HB 1472 (2013) https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2013-14/Pdf/Bills/House%20Bills/1472.pdf?q=20240830154104 establishes that "Boards of directors must approve AP computer science courses as equivalent to high school mathematics, including for purposes of meeting the third credit of mathematics required for graduation."  When this bill was passed, only AP CS A existed.   However, what happens to other courses with math and science is less clear and it seems much is up to the district/school.   

    Regarding science, https://www.sbe.wa.gov/faqs/science specifies "A computer science course may substitute for a third credit of science based on the student's interest and their high school and beyond plan, with the agreement of the student's parent or guardian or agreement of the school counselor or principal. "

    Regarding math, https://www.sbe.wa.gov/faqs/math  specifies "Non-math courses may count as a third credit of math or substitute for a third credit of math if the course is "… A computer science course, and the school counselor has provided written notification to the student and the student's parents or guardians of the consequences of the substitution on postsecondary opportunities."

    GUIDANCE ON TEACHING COMPUTER SCIENCE IN WASHINGTON STATE K-12 PUBLIC SCHOOLS (ospi.k12.wa.us) (2020) specifies what courses count as "computer science" but does not specify whether they may count as math or science credit.  

    CS courses generally do count as CTE credit, but realize your district doesn't have a CTE program.  How does your district handle the CTE graduation requirements?   According to https://www.sbe.wa.gov/faqs/occupational_ed, a CS course can satisfy both CTE and math or science requirements.  "CTE course equivalency or the "two-for-one" policy (RCW 28A.230.097) permits students who take some CTE courses to satisfy two graduation requirements while earning one credit for a single course; hence, "two-for-one". "

    "Consequences of the substitution on the postsecondary opportunities" mentioned in using a given computer science course for either a math or science credit probably refers to whether colleges will accept your CS course as an acceptable third math or science credit needed for admission.   Legislatively (and looking at info on advocacy on code.org), "AP Computer Science A can count as a mathematics credit required for admission at institutions of higher education in Washington".    However, this does not say anything about schools outside the state or other CS courses.

    Some follow up questions I still have are:

    • Anything that should be corrected here?
    • Are there other sources of information that I should be referring to?   Especially something that puts this all together?
    • Do Washington's higher ed institutions have any restrictions on using a computer science course as a 3rd year math or science course for admission purposes,   While I can see some of the courses listed as computer science (e.g. AP CS Principles, PLTW Computer Science) being accepted as a third year math or science for admission purposes to UW, there are others (eg., web design) that I wonder about.  

     



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    Lawrence Tanimoto
    Treasurer/Advocacy Lead, CSTA Puget Sound (WA)
    Winner, Men's and Women's Brackets
    2024 CSTA Chapter Leaders March Madness Challenge
    Bellevue, WA
    K-12 Teacher CTE (retired)
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  • 2.  RE: Computer Science as a third year math or science requirement?

    Posted 09-06-2024 06:01 PM

    According to CS State Supervisor Terron Ishihara on the CSforAll Slack channel:

    These are all great and accurate references. I often share RCW 28A.230.300 in response since it covers most of the above information in one place. This law applies to all CS courses as listed in Appendix V of OSPI's CEDARS database with "Computer Science" labeled "Yes". In other words, if OSPI recognizes the course as CS, then the course may count as a third-year math/science and may fulfill the high school CS elective requirement. The linked guidance PDF is accurate but a little outdated since there are 6 courses recently classified as CS; I'm working on updating that. I would defer to our colleagues in higher ed to answer the final question.

    I'm going to ask admissions at UW Seattle and WSU Pullman to see if they have any thoughts on this. 




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    Lawrence Tanimoto
    Treasurer/Advocacy Lead, CSTA Puget Sound (WA)
    Winner, Men's and Women's Brackets
    2024 CSTA Chapter Leaders March Madness Challenge
    Bellevue, WA
    K-12 Teacher CTE (retired)
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Computer Science as a third year math or science requirement?

    Posted 10-24-2024 06:52 PM

    There is a list of Statewide Course Equivalencies at Statewide Course Equivalencies (ospi.k12.wa.us)  that covers courses such as AP CS Principles, Computer Programming and Video Game Design

    Some further notes from OSPI on this list as it pertains to CS classes:

    School districts have been able to adopt local Career and Technical Education (CTE) equivalencies in all graduation requirement areas for more than 20 years. The use of CTE equivalencies to achieve required graduation credit supports students' flexibility and choice while students are on their path to obtain a meaningful diploma.

    In 2014, the legislature directed OSPI to develop curriculum frameworks of CTE courses that could be offered by high schools or skills centers considered equivalent in science or mathematics courses that meet high school graduation requirements. The first list of courses was developed and approved by the 2015-16 school year. The key to this directive is the use of "or" as it relates to science or mathematics.

    The 2019 legislature required school districts to provide access to a statewide equivalency from a list of approved courses and transcribe those courses as meeting academic credit and fulfilling a graduation requirement. RCW 28A.230.300 directs school districts that operate a high school to, at a minimum, provide an opportunity to access an elective computer science course that is available to all high school students. The legislation goes further to state that ". . . any course offered in accordance with this section must be aligned to the state learning standards for computer science or mathematics."

    Likely, the frameworks were developed in accordance with the legislative requirements and in alignment with the demand for high school CS and academic courses at that time.

    Courses such as AP CS A are likely not listed because the equivalencies are based on CIP codes. 110201 is the CIP code that corresponds to many state course codes, including the one for AP CS A. See the guidance PDF (which is due for an update) for more information on that. Schools/districts may change the course title in the framework from "Computer Programming" to the name they use. Interestingly, AP CS Principles has its own equivalency, perhaps in alignment with the AP CS grant given the Computer Programming framework references AP CS A. A lack of an existing OSPI equivalency framework for another CS course (e.g. Network Security) does not preclude districts from submitting a framework for that course as an alternative to a third-year math or science credit.



    ------------------------------
    Lawrence Tanimoto
    Treasurer/Advocacy Lead, CSTA Puget Sound (WA)
    Winner, Men's and Women's Brackets
    2024 CSTA Chapter Leaders March Madness Challenge
    Bellevue, WA
    K-12 Teacher CTE (retired)
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Computer Science as a third year math or science requirement?

    Posted 11-15-2024 11:48 AM

    Unfortunately, it took me too long to loop back to this issue.

    Washington's high schools do have considerable flexibility to use a computer science course as a 3rd year math or 3rd year science course for graduating from high school.   However, Washington's public 4 year university and colleges will not admit students who use computer science as a 3rd year math or science.   Please see attached mails from admissions  offices of UW and WSU which reference Washington Student Achievement Council's College Academic Distribution
    Requirements (CADRs) document when evaluating students' applications.

    The one exception to this is that AP CS A (only) may be used as a senior-level math course.



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    Lawrence Tanimoto
    Treasurer/Advocacy Lead, CSTA Puget Sound (WA)
    Winner, Men's and Women's Brackets
    2024 CSTA Chapter Leaders March Madness Challenge
    Bellevue, WA
    K-12 Teacher CTE (retired)
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Computer Science as a third year math or science requirement?

    Posted 11-21-2024 09:50 AM

    More from David Sundine of University of Washington:

    • If a student using computer science as a 3rd-year math or science applies to UW Seattle or another Washington public four-year college,  are they rejected outright with an explanation, or may they still be admitted on the condition that they take a 3rd-year math course prior to matriculation?  This would likely vary by university.  At UW Seattle, when a student applies, they need to show they are projecting completion of at least through Algebra II prior to enrolling at UW.  This must be shown on their application.  If somebody is math deficient, they will be denied.  We do not contact them.  By the time we would be able to contact them, the 12th grade would be more than half over, so they likely wouldn't be able register for a course to make up the deficiency.  Additionally, with an applicant pool of over 70K, we simply don't have the bandwidth to contact applicants with deficiencies to encourage them to register for an additional course.

    • Do the same requirements apply to computer science as a 3rd-year math compared to 3rd-year science?  Looking at https://wsac.wa.gov/sites/default/files/CADRs-CollegeAcademicDistributionRequirements.pdf, I can see explicit language that disallows using computer science as 3rd-year math. However, there is no explicit language regarding computer science as a 3rd year science.   Further,  the document GradReqVisualsAug2014.pdf regarding current graduation requirements clarifies that not all science courses need to be laboratory science courses.  Yes, the same is true for the 3rd-year of science.  While there isn't explicit language like there is for the math requirement, computer science courses do not count toward the science CADR.  Again, I need to stress that the Grad Req Visuals document you linked to is about high school graduation and not about college admission requirements (CADR).


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    Lawrence Tanimoto
    Treasurer/Advocacy Lead, CSTA Puget Sound (WA)
    Winner, Men's and Women's Brackets
    2024 CSTA Chapter Leaders March Madness Challenge
    Bellevue, WA
    K-12 Teacher CTE (retired)
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Computer Science as a third year math or science requirement?

    Posted 01-06-2025 10:39 AM

    Here is feedback from Julie Garver of Council of Presidents regarding the initial draft version of CS As a 3rd Year Math or Science that eventually was the lead article in the Jan 2025 Connector at January 2025 Connector - CS As 3rd Year Math or Science (Jan 02, 2025).    The feedback provides more detail on our universities point of view on this issue:

    Happy Holidays! Hope you are well. I am Julie Garver, Director of Policy and Academic Affairs with the Council of Presidents. We represent Washington's public four-year institutions. The draft of the January 2025 Connector - CS As 3rd Year Math or Science (Jan 02, 2025) was shared with us. Our sector is proud that the State of Computer Science Education 2024 report recognizes Washington as green for computer science and college admissions, this places us ahead of many states as the report indicates. However, while the draft is technically correct regarding minimum admission standards, we are concerned that how it is messaged may lead to misperceptions both of our support for computer science learning and education as well as the state's minimum admission standards.  We hope that you will consider the following in a second draft of the newsletter. 

     

      • All of the state's public four-year institutions offer computer science or computer science related degrees. Our institutions have advocated for over a decade to support growth and access to computer science across all six of our institutions. We would encourage the newsletter to reflect all of our institutions. We are concerned that identifying only WSU and UW continues the misperception among families, students and others that to earn a computer science degree a student must only attend UW Seattle or Washington State University. This is limiting for students and does not provide the amazing array of opportunities available to students across our sector.
      • Washington's minimum admission standards apply to all of the state's public baccalaureate institutions. Similar to the concern in the prior bullet, the current draft may be misperceived to suggest that either the state's minimum admission standards only apply to UW and WSU or that both institutions are differentiating themselves from the other public baccalaureate institutions as it pertains to the implementation of minimum admission standards. We would encourage the newsletter to reflect all of our institutions.
      • The newsletter is correct that computer science may meet the Senior Year Math-Based Quantitative Reasoning Requirement. This requirement is intended for students to continue to explore and retain math-related learning all four years of their high school experience and offers a range of courses that meet this intention. The inclusion of computer science is in alignment with states across the country. In a review of course work for admissions purposes across the 50 states. For computer Science: Eight states make specific note of computer science.  Texas and Georgia allow computer science to meet a language requirement. South Carolina, Colorado and Montana allow it to meet an elective course.  Nevada allows it to meet a science course and Massachusetts and Arizona allow it to meet either a math or a science course. We would encourage a review of the current messaging in the draft newsletter that may be perceived that our sector does not recognize computer science within our admissions standards.
      • The inclusion of computer science to meet the Senior-Year Math-Based Quantitative Reasoning Requirement, recognizes the critical role of science and math in high school as foundational preparation not just for college but also to pursue degrees in computer science.  This is the reason for the language in RCW 28A.230.300. We know a fear of math and thus math avoidance is strong among many students who would likely do well in math with more confidence in their skills and abilities. We also know that advanced math through high school is related to success in college regardless of major.  The language is intended to provide clear information for students regarding college readiness that both support a degree in computer science as well as many other degree opportunities we offer at our institutions. We would encourage a review of the current messaging in the newsletter to support students and families about how they can successfully incorporate computer science in their high school experience.
      • Our sector is supportive of identifying courses that are computer science focused that may meet CADRs. We recognize that there is a wide range of computer science courses offered by high schools that are diverse in their learning outcomes, including courses that are not math focused. We are supportive of considering those that may meet the admissions standards and have proposed opportunities despite a lack of success. We most recently proposed changes to the minimum admission standards to expand computer science courses but were not successful. This would have included additional coursework to meet the standards. 
      • All of Washington's public four-year institutions use holistic admissions to review students for admissions purposes. This allows for inclusivity of the whole student in the admissions process which includes course and grade patterns and trends. We are concerned about the messaging in the draft that suggests the admission of a student may rely on a single course decision. This not true. Further, in Washington nearly 50% of all high school students do not attend college after high school and the state ranks at the bottom (48th)  of all 50 states for participation by 18–34-year-olds in public baccalaureate education.  Our sector is working hard to create positive and engaged outreach to Washington students that there is a place for them among the institutions in our sector. We strongly encourage reconsideration of this message within the newsletter.  

     

    We appreciate your consideration. Take Care…Julie

     

     

    Julie Garver (she/her/hers)

    Director of Policy and Academic Affairs| Council of Presidents

    Tel: 360.292.4103 l jgarver@councilofpresidents.org

    | councilofpresidents.org | Twitter: @CouncilofPresWA



    ------------------------------
    Lawrence Tanimoto
    Treasurer/Advocacy Lead, CSTA Puget Sound (WA)
    Winner, Men's and Women's Brackets
    2024 CSTA Chapter Leaders March Madness Challenge
    Bellevue, WA
    K-12 Teacher CTE (retired)
    ------------------------------